Well, well, well. It appears that our favorite underdeveloped and over-funded undergraduate friends are still making their way into our library. I'm reminded of this fact as two noisy examples sit down next to me complaining about how 'they paid for this building too.' This has been a fight since this library was built. Kudos to the library for taking some ostensibly effective steps: 1) posting signs 2) restricting access to grads during finals 3)putting somebody in front of the door to ask for ID's 4) hiring a security guard to safe-guard our school assets against the Kitteridge hordes.
However, there is still much to be done:
1) extending library hours on the weekends of finals to at least midnight
2) actually enforcing the rules so that undergrads aren't allowed in after 5pm!
3) making it apparent that undergrads studying here and taking up our space or not adhering to the library rules will not be tolerated
We are on the verge of becoming a top public university. I would urge the Deans Office to examine policy at similarly situated law school libraries and restrict access accordingly. Stop allowing BB to make excuses how it's not her place to enforce the rules and that undergrads should have access too. Enough is enough. Stand up and act like a Tier 1 Law School library, for the love of all things holy!
P.S. I realize many of you will tell me I should confront these undergrads myself. I have and will continue to do so... although I really have better things to do and think about during finals.
52 comments:
The ID checker at the library entrance does nothing. He lets absolutely everyone into the library so long as they say they're there to do "research" or they "need to use the computers". He might as well not be there.
Also, I hope that picture isn't from our library.
I am an undergrad student and I use the library. I will be attending the law school next year, and I promise not to complain about undergraduate students in the library because the reality is WE DID PAY FOR IT. Do all law students take things way to seriously like you do?!?!?
Oh you're soooo getting hazed next year anonymous 10:16. Cuidado amigo.
I got my undergrad at Michigan (which is a tier one law school, well above CU), and the law library was open to the public at all times. Undergrads would study there alongside many other Michigan students (law and non-law) during finals period.
Anon 10:16 - nearly all law students take everything way too seriously. Wait til you get to deal with these ass holes on a day to day basis - you'll want to drop out.
I'm going to have to disrespectfully disagree with the high-and-mighty Wolverine.
I know very few a-holes at CU Law. Come to the sunny side of life, its a good place to be.
You know how you can tell if someone went to Michigan?
Just wait a few seconds, they'll tell you.
Sorry, I'm not Michigan material, but I am pulling my last school-related all-nighter EVER, which I find pretty darn sweet. Hooray for graduation!
oops, that is "so close I can tasTe it". I'm too old to stay up all night and type correctly.
ooooo Michigan! Can someone change this kid's coloring from the standard black "anonymous" to some type of gold or platinum font color?
Hey undergrad, I think it's debatable whether law students are really bothered about you being there or not. We do really appreciate you coming forward with the funds, that has been mentioned, with respect and admiration, more times than I can remember during the last few years.
PS - Michigan, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but you'd rather it come from another anonymous poster online than from a judge or partner in a few years.
Michigan hater,
You are apparently the product of a vocational school by your reading of my comments: You missed the point entirely. Read it again for content.
Ok, since you aren't going to get it anyway, my point it this: because the original post called for the law deans to examine other tier 1 schools' library policies, I thought I would add my experience with a higher ranked law school. In short, I'm inferring that the overly-bitchy poster's attempt to say that we would be a better law school if we kicked undergrads out of the library is bunk. If you don't like studying in the PUBLIC library, find some other quiet corner.
but your "point" was made while taking a cheap shot at your classmates, thats the problem.
Cry about it, Michigan. No one cares where you went to undergrad, especially when all anyone really knows about that undergrad is that it's known for being overly self-important and the color of your football helmets (stealing a design from Princeton doesn't make you Ivy).
Quiet, non-Michigan undergrads are fine.
As far as telling undergrads to be quiet, I did that once last year at the basement level. I believe I said "Could you please be a bit more quiet? I have a very difficult final tomorrow, and I would like to study." They said yes, and then loud snickering occurred for the next 45 minutes, followed by two phone calls. When they left, as they got on the elevator, they yelled, "asshole!". People like that are the problem. I don't mind the undergrads, but just as long as they are seen and not heard. While we are discussing Big Ten schools, I went to one that had a law school that did not allow undergrad access throughout the year. I think a few others, like Wisconsin and Indiana have the same policies. Undergrads, your parents paid for the library, not you. Just like they paid for your BMW. My taxes paid for Ft. Bragg and NORAD and the Library of Congress, but my access to those places is restricted. Stupid argument. I guess my point is that if you are going to use the library, which is fine, just shut the f**k up.
I hear Appalachia State has a better law school than Michigan. I wonder if they allow undergrad access. Oh wait, that is just the football team. My bad.
I guess I look at it this way. Remember when you were a kid and you would go to the community pool, and everyone could swim and have fun? But occasionally the lifeguards would blow their whistles and yell "Adult Swim" and all of the kids would have get out of the pool so adults could enjoy swimming without getting splashed or peed on? The library is the same way. "Adult swim" should occur during finals. Undergrads can still use study rooms reserved for them, the cafe, and all of the public areas. The problem is that 85% of undergrads are quiet studiers, but the other 15% are just there to socialize and be loud. In order to eliminate that 15%, you have to get all of them out. Just like adult swim.
Ok, so I'm one of those pesky undergrads as well as a former employee at the law library and I want to enter my thoughts on this subject. This “issue” is not about noisy undergrads. Yes, there are undergrads who talk on their phones and have conversations in quiet areas. BUT...I've also seen plenty of you law students doing the exact same thing. Moreover, since I worked mostly nights and weekends I can tell you from experience that this library is by far the quietest on campus. This "issue" is about a few whiny overprivelaged law students who want their own personalized study table reserved, even if they only use the library during finals (guess us lazy undergrads aren’t the only ones who never see the inside of a library until finals huh?!). Guess what folks, during finals, you might have to share a table with (gasp!) one of your fellow law students. (1L’s won’t bite, I promise) It’s called European seating. Finally, maybe those of us at the security desk would be more willing to enforce the rules if you treated us with a tad more respect (we’re not deaf when you hurl your insults at undergrads as you walk by the circ desk). Also, if you want the library to be open later, start using it!!! (I’ve closed three times this year during security days, and there were 15, 17, and 11 people here each night, not exactly numbers that beg for extended hours) As a bonus, if more of you used this place more frequently, there would be less room for the undergrads. Go figure that one. Ok, my rant is over. Since this is sure to be immediately deleted by the admins (don’t worry, this is the only comment I will ever leave), I want to conclude by saying that I have enjoying serving most of you and I think that a small minority give you guys a bad rap (see where generalizations get you?) As a final piece of advice, if you want to get your reserve books faster, use call #’s or specific titles (“Um, can I get a book off reserve, the title is Contracts” is not very helpful) Congrats to all the 3L’s graduating and good luck on the bar for those who are taking it.
Well said anon. 10:42. It is true that conjecture and complaining dominate discussions on this blog (and elsewhere). But, ranting and BSing is part of what we learn to do here in law school, so it isn't entirely our fault. Plus, undergrads are like freshman to us (or would that be the 1Ls--hell, I can't remember if I've even left high school?) meaning that the more we crap on them the better! Yeeeaaah!!!! 2009 rocks!!!
The way I've always handled the problem of undergrads in the library is by just not studying. It's worked pretty well so far.
Oh, BURN, anon. library undergrad employee. ha. I'm a 3L who had my last final today. I've never understood this whole library fanaticism, but it obviously chafes hard at some. It is, however, a tired topic on this blawg. I did like the photo accompanying the post, though.
I AM DONE!!!!!!! (assuming I passed my classes).
As a graduating 3L (I think) I love finals. The number of attractive females in the law building increases exponentially, thanks to the influx of undergrads. I just wish they had finals all year.
I would love to take part in this discussion, but alas, CU, I must be leaving you. I'm nostalgic for a little town called Kiss My Ass, Colorado.
I'M DONE! Lata playaz!
I would like to point out that if you go in the library, you are lame. Unless you are a hot undergrad with the name of something on the ass of your sweats. Then you are awesome.
As for the Undergrads paying for this building, their $50 goes to ALL construction on campus. At every public university students pay for the new buildings, period. It is unfortunate that the Undergraduate students here at CU feel a sense of entitlement. I pay in state tuition, and I can tell you that I pay upwards of $5,000 in tuition alone to attend law school here. Not to mention the fees that go along with it.
Like many of my classmates, I have a tremendous amount of loans, because law school is expensive. Every penny I put into this place comes out of my pocket. This is a professional school, and professional building. When I study in the library (most every day) I do not constantly want to be distracted by arrogant undergraduates with a sense of entitlement whom are only here because "it is more quiet."
Bullshit.
I've been to Norlin. If you don't sit in the main areas it is JUST AS QUIET as our library.
A portion of my tuition, just like an undergrad goes to maintenance of dorms, buildings, sidewalks, etc. Yet you would never see me talking loudly and making an ass of myself in your dorm at 8am.
An undergraduates $50 entitles them to nothing.
wow. if that's not the pot calling the kettle black. as a graduating 3L that does not feel like using the shift key right now (hence my lack of capitalization), i must say that its quite hypocritical for a law student to accuse anyone of having an (unjustified) sense of entitlement. if that's not the pot calling the kettle black, i don't know what is.
however, i like your argument. i think i might go walk around the dorms. undergrads are great.
To clarify:
I don't feel entitled to the building because I pay more money, and neither should undergrads for their $50. I am asserting there is a proper place for slacker undergrads. At a frat party.
There are a few undergrads who use the library all year who are both quiet and respectful. But they understand this is a professional building, and behave accordingly.
to iterate, i nonetheless stand by my generalization that law students have an incredible and oft-unwarranted sense of entitlement.
Yawn.
It may be a character flaw, but having DISRESPECTFUL undergrads in the library really is my pet peeve. They have many places to study other than here.
To clear up some facts, the Top 5 Law Schools: Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Stanford, NYU do not allow undergrads during finals. NYU never allows undergrads w/out a need to use legal materials. Yes, michigan, does allow undergrads. May I suggest it as the primary reason they can't break into the top 5?
FYI:
From Harvard Law
Restricted Access Periods: The library extends hours but restricts access during the reading and exam periods Dec 2 - 20, 2007; Jan 2 - 24 2008; and April 20 - May 13, 2008. During Restricted Access only Harvard Law School students, faculty, staff and officers are allowed regular ID access to the library. Others with a specific need to borrow or use materials in the collection inquire at the circulation desk for access.
From Columbia:
Apr. 14 - May 16: During this period, access to the Law Library is restricted to faculty, students, and staff of the Columbia University Law School and to others using the collections of the Arthur W. Diamond Law Library. Extended study hall hours are in effect, exclusively for Columbia Law School students. Please see signs posted in the Library for details.
From Yale:
Responding to requests from law students, the Law Library will again be open 24 hours a day during Law School reading/exam period (May 9 through May 23) and we will restrict non-law student access during this period and undergraduate reading/exam period.
From Stanford:
*Restricted Access Policy April 24 - May 5: use of reading rooms is limited to law students only
I study in my bedroom with a six pack. Am I alone in this? I actually get less frustrated as the hours wear on. I was a "serious student" during 1L year, but still didn't study in the library because it reeked of desperation. And, apparently, undergrads. But I wouldn't know.
Anyway, I'm outta here. I won't let the library door hit me in the ass on the way out, eitehr
"Yes, michigan, does allow undergrads. May I suggest it as the primary reason they can't break into the top 5?"
No. Do you really believe that law school rankings are affected by undergraduate access to the law library? I understand that you're pissed, but come on.
Also, all of the schools that you mentioned are PRIVATE. CU is not and so our library--regardless of who actually paid for it--is a public library. This changes the game tremendously. Sorry, I don't like it either but I solve the problem by staying away from the law school during finals. It's nice--no drama, nobody freaking out . . . give it a shot. It's better outside the law school. I promise.
Either. I meant "either." It is so WEIRD being done with law school. Yet so anticlimactic.
Can't we just tie a sock to the outer door handle of the library or tape a condom wrapper there so the undergrads know to stay out?
For the law students sticking up for the undergrads:
Undergrads are outnumbering us 10:1 in the library, and they are the only ones who "study" in groups of 10+. They are never talking about "study" topics, they are usually talking about getting drunk or high. It is DISTRACTING. It's a joke to say that law students are just as bad as the undergrads, because it is simply NOT true.
Groups of law students do NOT roll 10-deep, and if they do, it's NOT in the library.
Hey Anon 5:42... I jest, friend, I jest.
Okay - change of topic. WTF is up with graduation at Coor Event Center? Blows!!!
This is the second stupidest issue that repeatedly surfaces on this blog. The first, of course, is the merits of anonymous posting.
FYI: First, I love the undergrads. They're just great to look at and as far as I am concern, welcome in the library and other parts of the law building.
That being said, if you truly just hate the noise that undergrads bring then study on the second floor of the library, the one designated as undergrad study space.
Apparently these undergrads are the conscientious ones. It makes sense--these are the ones that follow the signs by going to the designated floor and they also tend to be quiet.
I wish they were a little louder so I would know to look up when they walk by. But those with a two or more track mind will love it here!
Everybody says when you are a 3L they bore you do death. Fuck it - Bring on 3L, I'm ready to be bored.
Find somewhere else to study, people. Is that too hard? Unless you get off on that weird air of panic, desperation, and hysteria that tends to prevail there...
If you didn't like sharing, shouldn't you have gone to a *private* university? There are implications of attending a public school, and it makes perfect sense that this should be one of them.
I agree with the hot undergrad comments. At least the undergrads have some fashion sense, while our law school is overall shamefully inadequate in that regard. Well, minus a few exceptions...
In defense of anon 10:31, I didn't think he/she was mentioning the Michigan degree in a snobby way. I believe he/she was merely attempting to show that he/she had personal knowledge that there are good law schools that do not have a closed access policy.
Immediately assuming the mention of that degree is a sort of name dropping indicates to me someone who went to a poorly-ranked undergrad school and is still sore about it...cry more.
and once again, in non-defense of the Wolverine, "it" decided "it" needed to call "nearly everyone" in law school ass holes. That is why his statements are being scrunitized, not because people care about undergrad "rankings." By the way, they rank undergrads? And more importantly, people pay attention to those "rankings?" Yikes.
And are law students not mostly assholes? What happened at last year's talent show? Or the way up to half of a classroom will laugh when certain unpopular individuals speak? Or, the "friends" who trash talk each other on IM? Or, the relentless gossiping? Then, there's the backstabbing - and the, I don't care who I screw over and what lies I tell to get a job (in this category in particular some horrible things have been done).
Yes, there are exceptions. But the asshole tag is really not too far off the mark...
There are he/shes at CU? I wonder if he/she went to Michigan on a minority scholarship.
For the record Indiana University is a public school, and undergrads are not allowed in their library. Ever.
Public v. Private has nothing to do with it.
For the most part, everyone I have encountered here at CU has been pleasant.
As in any setting, there are a few people I don't care for, but almost everyone who I have met who attends school here is a decent individual. (With a few unnamed exceptions.) I have enjoyed my classmates here and I am glad I chose CU instead of another law school.
Perhaps there is a dark corner where all the randOs hang out? Do they live under a bridge somewhere?
Click on the name for the link. Here is IU's text.
"The Law Library is available for use by faculty and law students. It is also available to students from other units of Indiana University and any member of the public with a need to use the collection. However, in consideration of those with a need to use the collection, the Library is not available to non-law students and others as a place to study non-legal materials. Those not actually using the Law Library collection may be asked to leave."
the people who laugh at those who constantly raise their hands arent the assholes...the assholes are those who constantly feel the need to show us how 'smart' they are by constantly running their traps in class
This is literally the 10th time this exact same thread has been on this blog. Freaking boring.
The only redeeming quality is the chance to make fun of yet-another pretentious Michigan alum (if you're wondering, there are no other kind).
holy shit - everyone here is an asshole. just look at the comments on this thread. First, law schools attract assholes; second, law schools make assholes bigger assholes; third, law schools give their students a sense of entitlement; and, perhaps most importantly, fourth law schools make their students overly defensive about everything (again, illustrated by this blog).
So what? You are an asshole. You fit in nicely with your classmates (which includes me - also an asshole).
I find that the biggest problem with you assholes is that you don't realize you are one. To the person reading this who is thinking to them self: I don't think I'm an asshole: get a grip - you are an asshole, Asshole.
Coffinberry is NOT one of those. I can't speak for myself, but I can speak for her. Anyway, I can think of at least, well, a lot of people who aren't. And some who are.
Personally, I have no problem with assholes. I'm an asshole. It's the douche bags that bug me.
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