Now that I have experienced 5 1/2 semesters of law school, and I am, therefore, an expert on teaching methods, I have come to the conclusion that the casebook method simply doesn't work for me. Reading cases and interpreting the nuances of judicial opinions is definitely a significant part of being a lawyer, but in my opinion: that's what legal writing teaches us. In legal writing, we hashed and re-hashed cases and rules and CREAC over and over until you could write a memo in your sleep.
I think it's ironic that when we begin our memos and briefs as 1Ls, the first thing we did was refer to secondary sources on the question presented. We looked to treatises and law review articles--that was how we learned the law and familiarized ourselves with the subject matter. Similarly when I write a memo for work, the first thing I do is open up a treatise or look for law review articles or notes on the issues.
When I took Torts, Property, Contracts and CivPro my first semester, the first thing I did was read a case. Is this really the best way to learn the law? Is this trial by fire? or some kind of sick initiation ceremony?
I've only had two professors (one adjunct) who taught from both a hornbook and a casebook. As a result, I think I understood those subjects better because the professor assigned reading out of both materials.
But maybe I'm way off base. The casebook method has been around forever so it must work well...Of course, the few who truly excel under this method perpetuate it when they enter academia and assign casebooks. Hmmm.
This is what I've learned from the casebook method: 1) Aspen books are oddly shaped, have long cases and a few miscellaneous notes; 2) Lexis books are about half cases and half notes that ask many confusing questions; 3) Thomson books are big and have sharp corners; 4) Foundation Press books are confusing as all hell; and 5) supplements are both cheaper and lighter than casebooks.
I'm probably just bitter.
97 comments:
Its been my experience that there are good casebooks and bad casebooks out there. The worst ones tend to be almost all cases with no explanatory materials, and to ask questions in the notes that don't have answers or that only an expert on the subject knows the answer to. I like doing problems at the end. They take forever, but I always understand the material better when I have to apply it.
Probably the most annoying casebooks are the ones that have notes and comments that say something like-- "Would this new rule be acceptable in Colorado?" and then cite a case without giving its holding! Who has time to look all of that up???
Know what makes even less sense than the casebook method? Law school finals. They get me really ready for a time when every state's laws apply and a client comes in with a problem covering every conceivable issue and is headed to court in three hours.
The best casebooks are definitely Dukeminier's because they have pictures. I find it much easier to understand the holding of a case when there's a picture of the presiding judge. I hope the next edition is a pop-up book (boom easement!).
There's simply no substitute for not buying a casebook, skipping lots of class and then reading a free outline the day before the exam.
Anon 4:17: While I agree with you, the whole law-finals-aren't-like-law-practice thing has been beaten to death. Guess what? No test you've ever taken in your life has been reflective of what you do. The logic games and formal logic section on the LSATs didn't get you ready for reading casebooks, the analogies on the SATs didn't get you ready for writing papers and taking exams in college, and you probably haven't used Euclidean geometry since high school.
Exams aren't meant to be a "test run" of what you'll do in your future career. They're meant to test whether you've learned what you were supposed to learn in the course. They're also meant to be relatively easy to grade.
Now, we can argue about whether a different exam format, or even writing papers, would do a better or fairer job of measuring what students have learned in a course, but when we do so, we should keep in mind that professors have to grade all those exams in about a month, or else everyone will whine about the lack of grades.
If you don't like traditional exams, take clinics, do externships, and take classes with papers, such as seminars. But please, quit complaining about how exams aren't like practice. They aren't supposed to be.
I like pictures because they make reading assignments go faster.
I agree with anon 1:50
I'd also like to add that clinic is one of the best experiences I've had as a law student. It gave me a taste of what a real lawyer has to do in her day-to-day life.
What's CREAC?
Waaah, grade at most 80 exams in a month. That's two--sometimes three--a day. Being a law professor is a ridiculously cushy job. If the faculty wanted to improve the quality of our legal education, they'd assign more memos and briefs, so that we could make it out of here with some practical skills. It might be nice if grades actually reflected one's ability a little more too. The real reason that we have the existing system is becaue we've always done it that way and the legal profession is slow to adapt. You haven't offered anything that merits keeping the old system.
P.S. The LSAT and SAT are equally illogical. However, there isn't a better alternative.
What are the most worthwhile clinics?
Creac is an island in Greece.
Geesh, didn't you learn geography in 5th grade?
Depends on what ytype of clinic you want... I would recommend Prof. England, Prof. Robinson, or Prof. Aaronson.
Once you stop caring about grades, law school becomes ridiculously easy.
Guess what you do as a lawyer? Read cases (then buy nice watches, cars, and wine)!
I prefer whiskey, or even a nice bourbon.
we have a new SBA president. I guess no one really cared that HM tried to have SK kicked out of the race last week...
Do tell...
what is the SBA? And why does my Inbox runeth over?
mondaymorningsbapundit's comments= exaggeration and without context. Take with a grain of salt.
i have a feeling that mondaymorningsbapundit = MC
What happened in the race? Finally, some legit gossip and we don't even have a summary. What is this blog for?
I, too, am curious to know what actually happened.
Agreed, I don't know any of the facts, and it is unfair for MondayMorningSBAPundit to make accusations against HM who may have been justified in her actions.
I actually liked both candidates, and it was a very tough choice at the polls today.
MC has a weird shaped head.
cant we all just get along?
This is just like in Napolean Dynamite where Summer Wheatley (SW) tried to have Pedro Sanchez (PW) disqualified for running for student body president! Did SK try to make a pinata of HM? (Seriously, what does a person have to do to get DQ'd from an SBA race?)
Obviously, I meant PS. . .
Well, whatever it is that one needs to do to get disqualified, it didnt happen in this race. HM did try to make SK drop out. Then when that didn't work, rumors were spread that SK should be disqualified or drop out. It is unfortunate that the race and HM's win are tainted by this drama.
Because it was just a one day vote on Monday when I am not at school, I didn't get to vote...
I know that HM was secretary of the SBA this past year, but has she done ANYTHING in that position? Nothing that I know of... At least I was aware of some of the things SK has worked on.
Yes, HM has done something! She is working to get us more access to the school and is working to keep the undergrads out for a longer period before finals. She also is on the school courses committee and looks at the new ones being suggested. Most importantly when students have problems with Professors(like the recent ones with RB) it is HM who goes to bat for the student with the administration. Just because she doesnt make flyers filled with tiny print doesnt mean she hasnt done enough things to fill that space.
Dear HM fan-- try to get a little more information before you talk. Unfortunately, you are wrong-- WORKING to do this and that is great, yet it has been almost a year and some concrete accomplishments should exist.
As to the RB situation and "going to bat for students" -- ooops, wrong again. I was in RB's Wills & Trust class last semester and hated every minute of it. For some reason, HM has found every reason in the book to somehow defend the "different" teaching method and the fact that RB hasn't really broken any school "policy." That is NOT going to bat!
I could be wrong, but something tells me that Anon 8:26 has never been in student government or in a leadership position...
Please realize that even if no action is taken to remedy/change a particular situation, that doesn't mean nothing was done.
Something tells me that Anon 9:05 has been in student government or some other leadership position and had nothing to show for at the end of his/her term.
It is so much easy to criticize, than to actually do.
...and so much easier to be "working" on something and never see the end of the tunnel.
you know what else is easier-cowardness- flying under the radar screen about your accomplishments (or lack thereof) and suggest that your opponent who has the courage of putting herself out there (fliers, etc) should drop out.
well, anaon 9:34, since you are not a coward, why dont you tell me who you are?
This discussion has not gotten out of hand enough to switch back to the debate of the relative merits of anonymous comments.
I don't know about HM's alleged questionable actions taken in the election. However...
I do know that last semester's Wills class HATED Prof RB because she did a terrible job teaching the material. Dean DM allowed RB to come back this semester, with HM defending her.... This semester RB is teaching Con Law (her "specialty") and she is now despised by the 1Ls for being a truly awful teacher.
I'm disappointed that RB is defended by the two most powerful women at the school (aside from Cindy), when we the students need them to stand up for our collective best interests and get rid of a professor who has gotten incredibly bad reviews across the board.
Dido! Student leaders should stand up to the administration (DM for example) and not play along like HM had been doing. The SBA should be there standing up for students! HM doesn't get that concept.
Re: RB- Unfortunately DM took RB on for a full year- they didn't choose to have her stay for a second semester. I think that DM is the problem. Not HM. I agree that FAR too little action has been taken regarding the HUGE problems surrounding RB- especialy the fact that all of us that unfortunately had her for Wills and Trusts not only learned absolutely nothing, but also have stains on our transcripts to remind us for the rest of our lives. No one seems to be listening- it isn't her "unique" teaching methods that are the problem- it's that she doesn't teach ANYTHING. She talks about her own personal issues and that she needs to "stay away from married men in Mexico." that has a lot to do with wills and trusts. Maybe we should have a new post started about this issue.
"thanks for turning out in great numbers for the elections" said the election commission-- the great numbers, as it turns out, are about 150 students! This is ridiculous! There are over 500 students eligible to vote and ONLY 150 showed up! The results of the elections may not change if participation was great, but now these elections are NOT legitimate. ONLY one hour of elections, on a MONDAY at noon? That's how we choose someone??? Completely ridiculous!
Why weren't these elections on-line?
Maybe DM is the problem in the whole RB debacle, but HM could have been the solution, at least for students. Instead, she chose to side with the administration and defend a professor who is now in the process of ensuring that a whole 1L section of con law will have no idea of what con law is all about. Sad.
Elections are not on-line because
1. The Election people can't see who votes for who.
2. People cannot vote more than once.
3. There is no free service that guarantees this will happen.
Those "zoomerang" surveys allow you to vote more than once.
If you (i.e. anyone @ CU law) has a suggestion that fulfills criteria 1 and 2 above, contact the Election committee. Tschus.
Are there more elections today and tomorrow? What are they for?
Honestly, I don't care about undergrads in the library. They are entitled to use it just as much as we are. However, I think we should be able to come in before 7:30 and certainly stay past 10 or 11:30 or whatever. I wouldn't be surprised if we were the law school with the most limited hours. Why can't we just pony up the money and keep it open until at least 2am, especially on weekends?
"They are entitled to use it just as much as we are." Why is that again? Schools such as Virginia, Indiana, and Iowa completely restrict law school library access to undergrads.
From the Indiana website: "The Law Library is available for use by faculty and law students. It is also available to students from other units of Indiana University and any member of the public with a need to use the collection. However, in consideration of those with a need to use the collection, the Library is not available to non-law students and others as a place to study non-legal materials. Those not actually using the Law Library collection may be asked to leave."
Anon. 1:06,
The library hours you propose are not consistent with our training to become alcoholics (or, in many cases, people's existing alcoholism). Seriously though, law school is important but it isn't THAT important. Get some sleep and use existing library time to get undergrads' phone numbers. . . .
With zoomerang,
1. you do not see who votes for what.
2. you can create a survey where ppl vote only once.
3. the administration has an already-paid-for account.
In case you're wondering how to do #2, you have to import the students' email addresses into the zoomerang contacts, then you can create a list which contains the emails you import. The list can then be used to target your survey audience (e.g., I created a "Class of 2008" list which can now be used by anyone to send a survey to the 2008 class). Setting it up this way ensures that recipients get one and only one vote.
An option that has been used (too often) in the past is distribution of a single web link to the survey. When this option is used, ppl can vote more than once.
here we go again with the library debate-- way to beat a dead horse. Confused: yes there were elections today (runoff for UGGS or USCU) and there are class officer elections + award voting tomorrow at noon in the cafe.
So...what joe is saying is that elections COULD have been held online. That's a shame! Many of us, especially 2Ls and 3Ls didnt get to vote and won't get to vote tomorrow either. Ridiculous!!!
Thanks for the zoomerang info.
For next year SK or HM - YOU'RE ON NOTICE!!!
Actually-- ELECTION COMMISSION folks should be on notice. They are responsible for the whole thing- including the lame turnout yesterday.
Oh.
Election Commission - YOU'RE ON NOTICE!!!
As a 3L, SBA elections are extremely boring to me. Actually, they were always boring to me. At any rate, I'd just like to put this out there:
"Dido" is a singer. "If my heart could sing songs, they'd sound like this..."
"Ditto" is the word the anon poster somewhere above me was looking for.
and since we are in a correction-like mode, let's make sure that our dear anon "It is so much EASY to criticize" realized his/her grammatical error.
I saw the error, but since posted anonymusly, I couldn't correct it.
one more disadvantage of anonymous postings :)
Anon 2:38,
Hahaha, I laughed out loud when I read that. Nice.
Hey 2:38- anonymUsly!!!! try coming back from that one! You just can't spell, it's okay.
Re: RB
RB may have a different (possibly bad) teaching style, but the truth of the matter is that she is the professor, and a student should do his/her best to glean information from her class. Because regardless it is not going to change this semester.
I can think of at least two professors who are substandard, yet they still have their jobs. Most troubling is a certain legal writing professor who is unwilling to help students. Not to mention no one is complaining to DM about them.
I don't know the details of the RB grade issue. However, I think that as grad students (vs undergrad or high school) we have to do more learning on our own. People pass classes by never attending and just reading the materials, and people pass classes by always attending and never reading a thing. I guess it goes both ways.
While I agree that the law library shouldn't cater to the schedules of late-night boozers, it should have less limited hours. Not being open until 10 a.m. on weekends is lame.
I respectfully disagree with Minnie. It may "go both ways", but it absolutely should not be that way - especially with a non-tenured professor. Students are lazy and its only us hurting ourselves.
If a con law section of 80 1Ls and a W/T class of 30(?) 2Ls and 3Ls says the professor is terrible, not teaching the material and is unprofessional, then what in the world is the argument for keeping her??? I'd love to hear it.
MC, we're bored. This keeps us from being overly bored.
60 posts later, I still don't know about the big election scandal. Something about fliers? All I've learned is that someone thinks one of my classmates has an oddly-shaped head (I disagree).
I did think it was inappropriate that AZ sent me and several other 3Ls an email urging us to vote for SK. It seems that if candidates were barred from using email lists, AZ shouldn't have used them to campaign on a candidate's behalf. I didn't like the endorsement. Very Vladimir Putin.
Now, will someone please tell me what on earth happened?
who has the oddly shaped head? And why are we talking about the undergrads in the library again-- it is OUTRAGEOUS that we cannot have our library to ourselves! It is the LAW library! They have their own library and many study spaces. Is there anything still being done about this?
I am still pissed that elections are not online! I sometimes feel bad about not participating, but I'm just not going to go to school for a stupid SBA vote if I don't have class. And I didnt have class on Monday!
MC's head is just fine. I have never, ever, not once thought his head was weird. As to the lack of oversight on the blawg, while I haven't completely given up on the blawg (obviously), as I mentioned previously my username and log-in has changed and I can't retrieve it. So can't log in to post stuff or to delete inappropriate comments. Also, I am more than a little disenchanted with this forum followng my posts re: Jenn.
AZ started abusing communication channels the moment she took office. Even Hakim bowed to her wishes once and cross-posted an email of hers back in the day. Her endorsement of an SBA candidate was no different.
MC, rather than only showing up when your name is mentioned, maybe you and your supposedly misshapen head should review some old posts with deleted comments. In the past, only comments where specific names are mentioned got nixed, mostly because they showed up in Google searches for people's names.
To Rice Eater's credit, he didn't kill yours, which contains the name of a classmate. Why? Because he's got better things to be doing with his time than policing the monkeys that show up on this blog and rack up 73 comments in two days. So lay the f&$% off and give the man some credit.
People have been bitching about library scum since this blog's inception, and nothing will change. Getches thinks we owe the undergrads something for helping fund the Wolf construction, so he's not willing to take action. The day some 5th-year senior starts using extra copies of F.Supp.3d as bong kindling is when the Bintliff banishment kicks in, guaranteed.
Here is the problem with this blog (and I am not blaming it on one individual or another)-aside from actually hurting people's feelings, this blog is so public that it can easily damage our school's reputation.
To my surprise, a search for the blog revealed a link on the ABA Journal that apparently directs ABA readers to our blog site.
www.abajournal.com/blawgs/cublawg
I hate to be conspiratorial about it, but I know that these days employers read more than a resume. They do facebook searches and myspace searches and just google searches. Who's to say that don't do the same for the law school, not just the individual person.
Some of the postings on this blog are appalling. The most telling example that remains up and running is the whole debate that occured after Jenn's passing. But bad, mean, tasteless comments seem to trickle in every post- comments on the "looks" of girls in the 1L class, 3L superlatives based on looks, puppies, cadoner and his stomach problems as a recurring theme, the postings by LT linking the profile directly to this dean's webpage profile, and so on.
Comments in bad taste, mean comments, or cruel commenst reflect so poorly on our students and the school. And RE is right (in the previous post) it is very few people ruining the blog for all of us. But those few people are not just ruining it for the rest of the bloggers, but for all the students at the law school, for future students at the law school, and for alumni who will always be associated with the school. It is a shame those choosing this blog as their uncensored venting mechanism don't realize and appreciate the impact that they are having. The anonimity should not unleash the a&*H%$#@ in you. Keep a filter of humanity and decency on when you post and think of how you would feel if you had to own up to your comments...let's say in an interview for your dream job, whatever that may be.
I vote to kill the blog entirely. It is no longer a public forum and instead has become a battle ground.
I don't enjoy reading it anymore because people are rude and call each other names. We have gained virtually nothing in the past two semesters from this blog. Is it really worth keeping around just to mud sling?
Yes it is. The blog is the ONE forum not controlled by the administration or the student government. It is very lame at times, but is a forum for students, by students. The more communication, the better. Plus admins and professors read this thing daily. While that means they see the asinine crap that is posted, they also see the concerns of the students. If you don't like it, don't read it.
I just wanted to chime in that I hate RB. AZ I'm not too thrilled about either. Her administration at UCD was suspect at best, as her successors could tell you.
Anon 9:38- you are right, the forum is one for students by students and that would be great if we can all keep at least the appearance of being decent people who respect each other and are able to act professionally whether they are expressing their opinions anonymously or not.
My point is not that we need a forum controlled by anyone, but rather that we are literally harming our reputation and that of our school by allowing the idiotic comments that people are allowed to post on here.
Aside from the discussion on hurt feelings and unwarranted personal attacks on everyone under the sun who chooses to be in the public eye, we at CU Law have a reputation to maintain to employers, prospective students, and the legal community.
This blog is diminishing our chances of getting a good job, attracting qualified new students and faculty, and maintaining good relationships with alumni and donors.
Anyone reading some of the trash posted on here can easily conclude that these students are not worth very much, as they dont respect each other, their school, or the profession.
This is the problem. As I said, this blog is out there for anyone to see (even on the ABA website!) and judge for themselves the kind of school we have, the kind of people who attend this school and decide whether these are people that a law firm or a new student wants to be associated with in any way.
We will all bear the consequences of the few idiots who don't have enough judgment to understand what they are doing.
I've decided to repost a redacted version of MC's earlier post:
This blog is so ridiculous. I may have a weird shaped head but at least I'm not a cowardly anon-poster. I haven't read this whole thing, bc it is long and it doesn't seem worth the time, but I'm confused..what does all this have to do with 'The Casebook Method'? The problem with this blog is there are no admins taking responsibility...the same thing happened after Jenn's passing, and people really got hurt.
Admins, where are you? Specifically, JC, and all you other blog rats who are in charge but too cowardly to take on the responsibility publicly, where are you? I don't care about this stupid blog--and I wouldn't have known about it if people weren't coming up and asking me about my weird shaped dome. My weird shaped head aside, this thing, this blog, has the potential to really divide and hurt people. What is being gained by it?
-MC
As an alumni and an employer, I take absolutely no stake in what is said on this website. My firm has certain qualifications based upon class ranking, grades, extracurricular activities, and community involvement. We hire frequently and actively from CU. Because this blog is ANONYMOUS, I don't know who writes what, so it does not reflect my hiring decisions, and does not reflect poorly on CU. While many of the postings are asinine, I feel this is an important forum that I know many of my fellow alumni read to see what is happening at CU Law. For example, it is great that the students have an anonymous voice to criticize an inept professor, because no one is going to realistically report that to the dean, based upon a fear of negative repercussions. Keep the voice alive.
I am also a CU alum and employer. This blog does not affect either my hiring decisions or my view of the school. It's an anonymous blog. I expect a few idiots. :)
I am for keeping CU blawg. Despite all the idiotic comments made by the few (e.g., MS and other annons), it is keeping me informed. I had no idea that RB was a bad teacher, AZ's endorsement of SK (is that wrong? it was not really a surprise), and many others. Some of us not in the "popular" group want to know what is going on.
I suspect few idiots, who came out of their cave by posting their comments on Jenn's passing and scholarship issue, are the same ones tainting the blawg regardless of the topics posted since then.
so what we have confirmed here is 1)that employers do in fact read the blawg
2) they recognize the world is filled with idiots
3)idiots are few and far between (hopefully) at CU Law
4) I'm never going to get a job because firms look at class rank (so does that make me one of the idiots? uh-oh)
MondayMorningSBAPundit said...
we have a new SBA president. I guess no one really cared that HM tried to have SK kicked out of the race last week...
3:42 PM, March 03, 2008
So, it appears that SK had AZ write an email on her behalf, asking certain 3L's to vote for her. I don't care if HM tried to have SK kicked out of the race. She should have been disqualified for having the current SBA president send out those emails, and something should be done about AZ's tactics. However , I suppose that none of this matters because SK STILL LOST....AHAHAHAHAHA
I wonder if AZ's email was the reason why SK lost, or is it because the few people who voted truly prefer HM over SK.
I am an employer and the student conduct on this blog reflects very poorly on CU students. I will definitely think twice about hiring a CU grad.
I'm unclear on something. Is there an SBA, CU, or CU Law rule that officer's cannot give an endorsement to another candidate?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/05/mccain.bush/index.html
I hope Obama doesn't find out!
I do hope employers realize that any person in the world can post on here and be an idiot, and that said idiot is not necessarily a CU Law student.
endorsing, and pressuring people to vote for someone are not the same thing
Here's my two cents-- I graduated from the law school last year and have not read this blog much during law school or after until this past December. Although I am working at a big law firm in Denver, I don't see myself as an "employer" yet. I know I don't have much influence in the hiring process even though I am involved in it as much as I can.
Last December, one of my colleagues, a more senior associate at the firm, came to my office and told me about the whole Jenn Shelton story and the blog entries that ensued. My colleague, a DU grad, was pointing out the cruelty and insensitivity of CU Law students. It was just an akward moment and bad position to be in.
It didn't just reflect poorly on the law school, but it reflected poorly on me an alumnus of the law school. I am and will remain committed to supporting my school, but this blog is just embarrassing. It puts alumni like me in a terrible position when we need to defend our students. Employers do read this blog. Decisions are clearly not made solely on this, but the impression of CU law students that this blog leaves is very negative.
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