AZ asked me to post the following, and against my better judgment I'm doing so.
After sending the third request for outline submission to the SBA outline bank, I received an email from a student who wished me good luck getting people to contribute, participate, and be supportive of their peers. Apparently, I needed the luck because of the low level of peer support and cooperation at our school.
Here’s the message- some parts were deleted to keep the anonymity of the student.
“I am sorry to inform you that this recent message you have sent to your peers [re outlines] was sent in vain. [...] I have been shocked and disappointed at the low level of peer solidarity and cooperation that goes on in the law school. I have been to the online "outline banks" and no one has contributed (at other schools, these banks are full of outlines...there are several listed for nearly every class. Furthermore, I have asked different people for notes or help finding outlines and these requests were denied. My experience has made me think much less of the University of Colorado law student body. Good luck collecting more outlines. You will need it. bitter, xxx”
Before you jump to any conclusions about the message, please take a step back and think about it. Think about that…our level of peer support, cooperation, and kindness. My impression of my fellow law students and our school in general was that we are a pretty nice bunch. To me at least, our attitude towards law school didn’t seem to compare to horror stories you hear about high strong competitiveness and back-stabbing that law students engage in. Of course there are many approaches, but people, in general, are considerate and at least somewhat helpful.
Then I thought about this outline bank. First, let me start by saying that law school outline banks are very common. Most schools have them and the ones that I checked are well stocked with outlines from numerous students who have taken the same class from the same professor, etc. Fair to say, our young outline bank has a long way to go to compare to what others are doing.
Now…that’s where the question of peer solidarity and support comes in.
On the bright side, our outline bank is fairly new. I set it up in the fall semester and so far sent three emails requesting contributions. Being somewhat of an optimist, I think that those who begin to benefit from it, will contribute in the future and the bank will grow.
On the other hand, however, I keep wondering why we didn’t get more contributions. One reason is that some are simply sick of my emails and have them go straight to their junk box. While this may seem fair, it’s not really an excuse for not helping others out. Another reason is maybe that people don’t have their outlines anymore…or have them handwritten. Well, there is another reason…a more disturbing one…people who have outlines, read my emails, yet choose not to contribute, not to participate, not to help.
The debate on whether we help each other enough can go on forever….Excuses and explanations for why we shouldn’t do it or why we didn’t do it. The reality in the end is that even on a selfish level helping is good because it makes you feel better about yourself.
The outline bank is simply an example of how we interact with our peers. My thoughts on this were prompted by a disgruntled student to whom I thank for allowing me to share the message. So, think about it all…doing your part, gathering good karma, and feeling good because you helped—it works!
Fire at will!
29 comments:
Hate to be a hater, but...
1L: Scared, but optimistic.
2L: Busy. Optimism --> pessimism.
3L: Bored. Acceptance that 5% of people care.
AZ, Hakim's going to have to tell you to go jump in a lake the next time you ask him to post the same damn thing you just emailed to all of us. Right, Hakim? Please say this is the last time. Rucking Fidiculous.
Several questions:
Are only "good" outlines being posted? Can I post my outlines from classes where I did poorly? Is it a hassle to log into TWEN to post outline? Why should I care how others who I do not necessary know nor care for do on the exam? Will an e-mail sent by the SBA president filled with back-handed insinuations that I do not care inspire me to post? Does it matter that I may want to give my outlines to people who attend class and invest in their law school experience, opposed to putting it out on a database where a ritilin-chomping 2L will print out a copy an use it on an exam? And so on, and so on.
Given that I'm graduating in a month, I can almost guarantee you that it's the last time. ;-)
Wow...things are getting heated on the blog-- I must be missing something cause AZ's email, while related to outlines, had not much to do with the actual topic of the post.
First, I agree with bolder law- the reality is that most people simply don't care to read emails or to participate in anything.
Second, the post is long...too long, but, in all fairness, makes some good points.
Lastly, I was on the fence about anonymous postings, but maybe their not such a good thing.
Okay, I didn't read it closely enough. This is the original Anon in this post speaking. So it's different. That's a bit better. Every time I see AZ's name my brain goes on autopilot. Nothing against AZ personally, just does. My bad for the knee jerk comment.
But I think Bolder's right. I have never had any problems getting outlines from people, and the only person I know who does have such a problem has that problem because of her own problems-- ie, this person *never* goes to class and then asks everyone who did go to class for notes and outlines and we all know it. The lack of outline bank participation doesn't mean we have no spirit of cooperation; it may mean most of think our outlines are crappy. Or we may not keep them. I burn them in a cleansing ceremony after each semester, just as an example.
I've never rejected a request to give notes or an outline. If someone asked me for an outline/notes I would still give it to them. For whatever reason, I'm reluctant to post them on TWEN. Call it 3L apathy maybe.
Another perspective. My outlines are noticeably different then how other outlines are prepared...and I want to be able to explain it to someone who asks me for an old outline. But I don't want to be answering questions as to why I put a case in this particular location for random people downloading it in TWEN. That is simply a personal preference and NOT a reflection on Apathy.
I have never been denied an outline or class notes that I've asked for. And I've never denied a request that someone has made of me. And I think there are reasons other than a general feeling of misanthropy for people not contributing (as NJL indicated).
"Law Bum" isn't anonymous?
AZ's intentions are good, but her method has five key flaws.
First, as I've complained about before, the email signal-to-noise ratio at CU Law sucks. I'd say that at least half of the communiques I get per day come from the Dean's office, Cindy, class officers, some student group (via Wylie Nelson), or main campus, and once out of fifty times its for something personally relevant to me. So yes, when I get an email from any of the above groups, I usually scan it quickly and ultimately trash it.
Second, if I went to every event advertised or responded to every request from the vice president of [Insert Student Group Name here] or some other group that I'm not involved in, let alone the idiotic Buff Bulletins I get every morning, I'd have no time to get anything done. And for someone that wastes a lot of time checking email and blogging, that's saying something.
Third, AZ's effort is nothing new. We had an outline bank, and it should be buried in the SBA TWEN site somewhere. Why the huge push to start a brand new one?
Fourth, I find the guilt trip insulting. As the comments (and reputation of the institution) indicate, CU Law is fairly unique in that we all do, in fact, support one another. The problem is the differing definitions of the word "support." For me, I'd say that by minimizing the requests I make of others, and by not bugging them with email after email after email, I SUPPORT THEM AND MAKE THEIR LIVES BETTER.
Fifth, one third of the student body is 3Ls, and has less than a month to go. Deal with it.
Ultimately, however, it comes down to marketing and messaging. I bet you a steak dinner that AZ would have received a better response if she had sent an email to the 3Ls that said something this:
Sick of all the damned emails from the SBA and other student groups? Send me at least ten outlines, and I'll have your name removed from the class of 2007 listserv for 96 hours.
Yours,
-Prez Zeppelin
I just gotta add, not giving up outlines because of apathy, embarrassment, or to keep them from annoying people is fine.
Hording them for for some of the gunnerish reasons brought up by posters is lame as s**t.
Word. Moreover, if you think that will help you, you're kidding yourself.
As for the outline leach mentioned above, does anyone know if she's graduating this year? If memory serves, she entered as a member of the class of 2006.
Regarding outlines, talk to your friends, tutors, acquaintances, and even professors, and someone usually will hook you up with at least one for whatever class you are in
Also, outlines received from others may suck. Last year, I received a 55 page outline from one person and a 7 page outline from another for the same class. They both sucked. This is not uncommon.
P.S. Wylie Nelson has the best name in the law school.
Anonymously taking the 5th on that one, Hakim.
Well, outlines aside... some advice would be great. How can I do better on Furhman's multiple choice evidence exams? And how killer are Huntington's exams -- I hear they are hard.
AZ, for future reference:
When I am asked to do something, and for whatever reason, I don't do it, if it is implied that the reason I didn't do it was because of apathy or jerkishness or whatever, my response to that is not likely to be, "gosh, you're right, I'm so sorry, let me do what you ask." Rather, my likely response will be "eat a bowl of dicks." Every single person I have ever asked for an outline has given them to me, and I have given outlines to every person who asked me. Why? I only ask friends, and am only asked by friends.
Well, I guess the posting sparked some discussion, although I'll admit, not exactly the kind that I intended. Let me clarify one thing -the apathy poster- that was Hakim's kind and rather inflamatory addition to my message. Second, my posting was about the email I received from a student The email surprised me, as my posting suggests. It was so surprising that I thought maybe others would be surprised by it too, which is why I want to have it posted. I added some context so those reading it wouldn't instantly criticize its writer, which seemed tempting.
At the end of the day, regardless of intentions and apparently flawed approach, my decision to discuss this on the blog was apparently against my own better judgment. I'm getting ready to jump in a lake, since the mere mention of my name gets people on autopilot.
My posting was not meant to be an attack on anyone, so, my apologies if it came across that way. My personal impression of my peers is positive and my experience at CU has been good.
As for my emails sent through the listserve, I assure you that I try hard not to burden you with junk messages. Harder I shall try from now on...
Whoever sent the e-mail to AZ doesn't know what they're talking about. The atmosphere here is as good as any law school I've ever heard about, and if the student in question doesn't recognize that, then they are probably one of the few people who isn't contributing to that genial atmosphere. And frankly, if this person can't get along with people here, I hate to think what life would have been like for them at pretty much any other school in the country, and certainly any other tier 1.
Second, sorry AZ, but I don't like the concept of outline banks. Do your own work, or work with a group. If someone asks me, I'll gladly give an outline, but an impersonal outline bank is, to me, a complete waste of time. Further, attempting to measure "peer support" and "kindness" on the basis of contributions to an outline bank strikes me as a little odd. In other words, ditto to what many of the people here have already said.
I really appreciate the outline bank, though as a 1L my outlines aren't useful to anyone this semester, thus I won't be posting any. (And my grades could have been better) But I think choosing not to share, even if it's because you're gunner-ish, is your own personal choice. Someone who uses another's outline because of a lack of their own preparation will probably be screwed anyways. For my use, when doing my own outlines if something isn't really clear to me, I'll check the bank to see if someone else's outline can supplement mine on that point.
And AZ, please don't go jump in a lake. It's not you. It's just that you've got access to the entire school's email accounts.
Kudos to you and those like you who are willing to take the heat as elected officers in law school.
Reason why I personally hesitate at the thought of a public outline bank:
A 1L asked for my Civ Pro II outline yesterday. In emailing it to him, I opened it up and saw a heading for a section entitled, "Erie....biatch! Bring it, Mueller!"
I curse in most of my outlines. I write crude, obscene things to either make me laugh during the exam, or keep things lively as I write 'em.
As long as you don't repeat the idiocy of Doogie Law Professor, I'm sure you'll be fine.
That's a heck of a timely article HS.
The infinite digital memory. That is why posting anything on the Internet requires a careful self-censor.
I'm a 2L, and I go to class, but remain a proficient slacker nonetheless. I share my notes, outlines, etc with anyone who asks, particularly those in my class - now, why would I do that considering we're "in competition with one another"?? 2 reasons.
1 ...because people have always done it for me, and if gaining a couple spots in the rankings was that important to me quite frankly I'd just study harder. If you're not getting outlines or notes from people, you're either asking the wrong people or perhaps consider some introspection as to why everyone is being an asshole to you.
2 Or, if I felt that my property interest in an outline, made months ago that I have no use for anymore, is so important and I thus felt the need to hoard it, I would presumably be the world's greatest law-tool. "My outline is 800 pages long, and it's beautiful and you can't see it." Of course everyone has the right not to share, no one is denying that! It's just lame, that's all.
One example (of why I enjoy the CU Law experience) is indicative of the community here: I missed a class two weeks ago. Happens. Two people sent me their notes without me asking - a very thoughtful thing to do for a friend or the (missing) person who sits next to you in that class.
Another example: since I've been in law school, there have only TWO times where people have declined to share their notes/outlines. One person just freaked out first year, and apologized the next semester. The other person was just nasty about it - even after my computer crashed - and two people I didnt really know at the time offered to send me their notes. It reflects poorly on the character of the person who didnt want to share - both from my perspective, and from that of everyone I told the story to.
CU is not cut-throat 99% of the time. Being a nice person goes a long way.
LAM>
I agree with everything the last anon poster said! I am also a 2L... if someone asks for my outlines I will gladly share them. Who cares about rankings and where I fall in them, in the long run making friendships and good connections will help me more than my grades will. And AZ you do a great job!
So I have shared my outlines with everyone who has asked and sent them to AZ to post every year. On that note, I really like the idea if someone needs help they have a frame of reference. On the downside, I asked AZ to post them either by my last name or my grade (which I provided her). She chose to post by both (error later corrected), but things like this discourage me from participating in the future... I don't really want everyone in school to know my grades. It is worth remembering how nervous you were as 1Ls and atleast submitting those outlines (it can't affect your rankings in the least).
Wow, what a lot of posts.
Let me suggest a possibility -- though ceraianly not an accusation. It occurs to me that everyone who wants to be asked for their outline instead of posting it, might really be looking for a hot quick little fondle of their ego. If you're so willing to give it away, then give it away already. It seems petty to to make people approach you so you can feel good about how they sought you out for your insight into X subject.
However for those who don't want to give away outlines to the outline bank because it is yet another tiny piece of drudgery associated with law school -- I'm with you.
La, la, la.
Someone asked about Huntington's exams and Furman's Evidence exam.
I took both and did well. Huntington cares A LOT about organization. I suspect that a simple road map paragraph at the outset goes a long way. I underlined different sections of my answer and set them apart. Additionally, and I have no way of confirming this, but I think style also matters a great deal. She clerked on the Supreme Court, and she doesn't use a point system like many other professors. As a result, I think she relies much more heavily on her overall impression of an answer than content alone. It's also important to consider ambiguous facts. For example, is the couple married or related? You don't know if you just have names, but you should mention these issues. Finally, she has several old exams with answers, so be sure to check those out as well. I've heard people say they were crunched for time. That wasn't my experience, and I almost always run out of time, so I would recommend spending at least 20-30 minutes organizing an answer. I spent twice as long as I normally do outlining.
As for Furman, you probably got a sense of what his exams are like from the midterm. The final is very similar. You need try to memorize the rules because Furman is tricky. He'll leave out a word, such as "unfairly" (FRE 403) and doing so changes the answer. I outlined, but that's just because writing the rules out over again forced me to learn them. Go over the slides as well, but the best place to start is with the rules. As for the essays, one of the finals questions was on a case that we went over one day for about 20 mins. Make sure you know the major cases, at least well enough to write 50 words about them. Use contractions when you write the essays. I had a hard time with the word limit. Read carefully and don't rush through the exam. In my experience, the people who did the best also stayed the longest. I hope someone in those classes finds this helpful.
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