I think online OCI was really good. It's also great to get job postings sent via email. I know that Eric Bono really helped me with my resume. But I think more more structured support for those who didn't get jobs through OCI would be good, if they're looking for a way to improve services. You know, "Don't have a job? We're having a series of Brown Bags that address how to find one outside of OCI" and then do that along with some goal setting. I think that would be good. I really liked PP, but Paricio has really taken the bull by the balls, IMO.
I agree that VP's improvements are a welcome change from where we were a few years ago. By the same token, however, it seems that she lacks a clear strategy for improvement, aside from spending more on belles [sic] and whistles.
The fact remains that while the law school is ranked 43rd nationwide, we're 63rd in terms of post-graduate employment with a low, low rate of 72.3% for 2007. DU, on the other hand, is ranked 28th in post-grad employment with a rate of 87.3%. Huh?!!
Does that rate not bother anyone? Does the oft-repeated explanation about folks taking government jobs not ring hollow to anyone? Do we even know how many students out of the 72.3% are waiting tables or making less money than before they went to law school?
Whining aside, I think DU's location and its extensive alumni base-- they graduate a lot more people than us-- has something to do with it. But it's still a shameful statistic. CU's graduates are generally brighter overall than DU's, at least if you look at incoming credentials. Oh, and I think DU's practical approach to learning the law probably helps, too.
Isn't anybody upset that I'm leaving? Just kidding. I haven't been with the office for even a year but for what it's worth, I know that those low stats are from the Class of 2004 since there's a two-year delay in US News posting those statistics. Now, let's get back to me - I will miss you all xoxoxo.
Hakim, while those stats are troubling on their face, there's really no way to decipher what they actually mean, aside from the fact that CU refuses to "game" numbers for the sake of rankings: http://www.aals.org/reports/validity.html
-------- Placement At Graduation. Law schools reported the percentage of their students who had secured employment at the time of graduation. This figure included graduates who were studying for another degree as well as those who got jobs outside of the legal profession. The failure to distinguish between legal and non-legal jobs raises serious questions about the validity of this index. The placement rate also included graduates who kept jobs that they had before beginning school. By including jobs that were not acquired as a result of a student's law degree, this measure may artificially inflate values for certain schools, especially those where large numbers of students work to pay their tuition. In addition, only 70% of law schools provided this placement figure. This led US News to "impute" (estimate) the employment rates for the missing schools by applying a discount rate to their nine-month placement rates. It is not clear what effect this imputation had on the rankings. ---------
Personally, I think CDO, the admissions office, etc... should report statistics in the manner most favorable to bumping CU up in the US News ranks. But it seems that the school always wants to "take the high road," even though that's the game many other schools choose to play.
I agree, jigsaw. (Hence my earlier comment about the statistics including maître d' jobs) But if you assume that schools beyond the proverbial top ten experience the same statistical mix that we do, that still doesn't explain the gap.
So...what gives? Is it completely attributable to municipal proximity and alumni? Are the figures from the past two years any better? I wonder...
What about the fact that DU has an evening program? My impression is that many people in the evening program work full-time during law school. How many of them continue in those same jobs after graduation? I don't know if that would account for the entire difference, but it would seem to negate the assumption that the schools have the same statistical mix. It seems likely that with the evening program, DU may have more students who are employed in non-legal jobs and in the same jobs they had before law school.
Speaking from experience, the whole CU/DU thing doesn't seem to matter much once you land the interview. I suspect that the part-time option at DU drives some of the delta we're seeing -- its a lot easier to keep a job than to find a job.
My grades tanked second year when I tried to work 25 hours a week while still taking 15 credits. Had I been able to drop to part time, I'd probably still be at that downtown firm. Instead, I had to pass on some sweet cash and buckle down. Otherwise, HS would have kicked me off of the blog for academic ineligibility. Just kidding about that last part (as far as you know).
Generally, I think they do a good job. Patty was outstanding. I got kind of concerned after graduation, however, when I found out that the Career Development office had e-mailed "resume books" to my firm and sent a generic message like "Here are people who are interested in practicing in areas that your firm may or may not practice in." They didn't take the time to even figure out which firms practice in which areas. As people in that office told me a million times, people who practice law are busy, and hiring people tends to be low on their list of things to do unless they *really* need someone. I think that e-mail would have had more impact if they took the time to key it to each firm. Instead, it seemed like Spam. The last thing the Career Development Office wants to do is to become an annoyance instead of an assistance to firms. That said, I think the people there are generally very helpful. They're good at resumes, cover letters, and tips on networking.
In response to HS, the employment statistics for the Class of 2005 are located on the law school website at http://www.colorado.edu/law/about/factsfigures.htm The Class of 2006 statistics will be posted by early summer.
18 comments:
Better than when I got here....
They do a good job getting firms and attorneys here and they have always been helpful!
I actually think they do a good job. They try very hard to meet the individual needs of students and are very aware that it is not just about OCI.
I think online OCI was really good. It's also great to get job postings sent via email. I know that Eric Bono really helped me with my resume. But I think more more structured support for those who didn't get jobs through OCI would be good, if they're looking for a way to improve services. You know, "Don't have a job? We're having a series of Brown Bags that address how to find one outside of OCI" and then do that along with some goal setting. I think that would be good. I really liked PP, but Paricio has really taken the bull by the balls, IMO.
I agree that VP's improvements are a welcome change from where we were a few years ago. By the same token, however, it seems that she lacks a clear strategy for improvement, aside from spending more on belles [sic] and whistles.
The fact remains that while the law school is ranked 43rd nationwide, we're 63rd in terms of post-graduate employment with a low, low rate of 72.3% for 2007. DU, on the other hand, is ranked 28th in post-grad employment with a rate of 87.3%. Huh?!!
Does that rate not bother anyone? Does the oft-repeated explanation about folks taking government jobs not ring hollow to anyone? Do we even know how many students out of the 72.3% are waiting tables or making less money than before they went to law school?
[insert obligatory Disraeli/Twain quote about "lies, damned lies, and statistics" here]
maybe kids a DU spend less time whining on an online blog and more time actively trying to find employment
Whining aside, I think DU's location and its extensive alumni base-- they graduate a lot more people than us-- has something to do with it. But it's still a shameful statistic. CU's graduates are generally brighter overall than DU's, at least if you look at incoming credentials. Oh, and I think DU's practical approach to learning the law probably helps, too.
Damn you, Ivory Tower!!! Damn you!!!
Isn't anybody upset that I'm leaving? Just kidding. I haven't been with the office for even a year but for what it's worth, I know that those low stats are from the Class of 2004 since there's a two-year delay in US News posting those statistics. Now, let's get back to me - I will miss you all xoxoxo.
So what are the new stats, then?
Hakim, while those stats are troubling on their face, there's really no way to decipher what they actually mean, aside from the fact that CU refuses to "game" numbers for the sake of rankings: http://www.aals.org/reports/validity.html
--------
Placement At Graduation. Law schools reported the percentage of their students who had secured employment at the time of graduation. This figure included graduates who were studying for another degree as well as those who got jobs outside of the legal profession. The failure to distinguish between legal and non-legal jobs raises serious questions about the validity of this index. The placement rate also included graduates who kept jobs that they had before beginning school. By including jobs that were not acquired as a result of a student's law degree, this measure may artificially inflate values for certain schools, especially those where large numbers of students work to pay their tuition. In addition, only 70% of law schools provided this placement figure. This led US News to "impute" (estimate) the employment rates for the missing schools by applying a discount rate to their nine-month placement rates. It is not clear what effect this imputation had on the rankings.
---------
Personally, I think CDO, the admissions office, etc... should report statistics in the manner most favorable to bumping CU up in the US News ranks. But it seems that the school always wants to "take the high road," even though that's the game many other schools choose to play.
I agree, jigsaw. (Hence my earlier comment about the statistics including maître d' jobs) But if you assume that schools beyond the proverbial top ten experience the same statistical mix that we do, that still doesn't explain the gap.
So...what gives? Is it completely attributable to municipal proximity and alumni? Are the figures from the past two years any better? I wonder...
What about the fact that DU has an evening program? My impression is that many people in the evening program work full-time during law school. How many of them continue in those same jobs after graduation? I don't know if that would account for the entire difference, but it would seem to negate the assumption that the schools have the same statistical mix. It seems likely that with the evening program, DU may have more students who are employed in non-legal jobs and in the same jobs they had before law school.
Speaking from experience, the whole CU/DU thing doesn't seem to matter much once you land the interview. I suspect that the part-time option at DU drives some of the delta we're seeing -- its a lot easier to keep a job than to find a job.
My grades tanked second year when I tried to work 25 hours a week while still taking 15 credits. Had I been able to drop to part time, I'd probably still be at that downtown firm. Instead, I had to pass on some sweet cash and buckle down. Otherwise, HS would have kicked me off of the blog for academic ineligibility. Just kidding about that last part (as far as you know).
Generally, I think they do a good job. Patty was outstanding.
I got kind of concerned after graduation, however, when I found out that the Career Development office had e-mailed "resume books" to my firm and sent a generic message like "Here are people who are interested in practicing in areas that your firm may or may not practice in." They didn't take the time to even figure out which firms practice in which areas.
As people in that office told me a million times, people who practice law are busy, and hiring people tends to be low on their list of things to do unless they *really* need someone.
I think that e-mail would have had more impact if they took the time to key it to each firm. Instead, it seemed like Spam. The last thing the Career Development Office wants to do is to become an annoyance instead of an assistance to firms.
That said, I think the people there are generally very helpful. They're good at resumes, cover letters, and tips on networking.
In response to HS, the employment statistics for the Class of 2005 are located on the law school website at http://www.colorado.edu/law/about/factsfigures.htm
The Class of 2006 statistics will be posted by early summer.
49% at law firms...sweet. That is something to be proud of.
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